tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post3342905800059262813..comments2023-08-09T09:01:29.229-07:00Comments on Pliny's Tangent Du Jour: A Challenge: Imagine You Are WrongPliny-the-in-Betweenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-47961018180597767752009-08-05T11:22:13.820-07:002009-08-05T11:22:13.820-07:00I highly recommend "the Buried Book" by ...I highly recommend "the Buried Book" by David Damrosch (2007). <br /><br />It's a pretty fun read about the discovery of the epic of Gilgamesh and touches on its history and possible influence in the region's later beliefs. It's a good introduction to that aspect of comparative theology and a darned fine detective story as well!Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-28006501426009219482009-08-01T07:03:05.158-07:002009-08-01T07:03:05.158-07:00Um, that sounds odd. Critiquing Gilgamesh but also...Um, that sounds odd. Critiquing Gilgamesh but also saying I haven't read it. Specifically I only looked at the chapter overviews in wikipedia (forgive me) to find adequate themes, key names within a comfortable morphological range etc. <br /><br />This is the longest run of mind flatulence I've had since thinking William Hays could be reasoned with ;-)!<br /><br />I miss that guy. He was like Oscar the Grouch on 'roids.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-77326937519418384482009-08-01T00:43:10.058-07:002009-08-01T00:43:10.058-07:00Pliny, I'm going to do a make up post on abort...Pliny, I'm going to do a make up post on abortion. There's not much ambiguity there for me so it should meet the criteria.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-56654933094887792162009-07-31T15:00:24.533-07:002009-07-31T15:00:24.533-07:00The re-post link works.The re-post link works.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-85447893966758536802009-07-31T14:50:55.483-07:002009-07-31T14:50:55.483-07:00Pliny,
Actually haven't read Gilgamesh (un po...Pliny,<br /><br />Actually haven't read Gilgamesh (un poquito shame-o on me-o). Aside from my conversion to Christianity I was only fluent in Greek mythology.<br /><br />The post is done, albeit only kind of.<br /><br /><a href="http://livinginanecdotes.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Myth and Genesis</a>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-82613218764806138222009-07-31T13:49:30.937-07:002009-07-31T13:49:30.937-07:00OneBlood - my link isn't workingOneBlood - my link isn't workingPliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-5577446279880230542009-07-31T13:39:17.226-07:002009-07-31T13:39:17.226-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-29172430059319488412009-07-31T10:16:09.277-07:002009-07-31T10:16:09.277-07:00Harvey
Well said.
One of the things that gets ig...Harvey<br /><br />Well said.<br /><br />One of the things that gets ignored n the blogospehere as well as life in general is how many layers there are to that onion called 'doing the right thing'. As OneBlood said on Brian's blog most things are not absolutes despite our desire to so simplify them.Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-44593446501510496382009-07-31T05:33:49.341-07:002009-07-31T05:33:49.341-07:00Pliny:
"We of course as a profession would n...Pliny:<br /><br />"We of course as a profession would not favor deciding to treat or not treat a patient on the basis of 'moral value judgments about the patient' but is that the same thing as deciding to provide or not provide a service which is morally objectionable to the provider? Doesn't seem like the same thing when I say it that way."<br /><br />I certainly agree that this "exercise" has proven thought provoking. It seems to me that professionals (like us) who are charged with helping others to deal with disease, injury, and aging must always make our judgements based upon what we perceive is in the best interests of the patient. That said, we must also do this in the framework of our own perceptions and biases. I have not been involved in "assisted" suicide in the current, legal sense, but, as a Head and Neck Surgeon treating advanced cancer patients, I have occasionally been called upon to decide just how much sedative and/or narcotic management is necessary to achieve "ultimate pain control" for these unfortunate and often extremely suffering individuals. Many of them and their families have become close acquaintances (and even friends) over the months to years I have been trying to manage their cases. I have discovered that it is not only the families who have to deal with the outcomes of these difficult decisions; I have to live with them as well, long after the patient has achieved "ultimate pain relief" as a result of my interventions or decisions. As a result, although I favor freedom of choice for women whose pregnancy has created physical and/or psychological distress, I can understand that being forced or coerced into taking part in such activities can have an even greater price for someone whose beliefs tell them that this is unethical behavior.Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10797750710657979526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-36488365407463492892009-07-30T17:30:45.539-07:002009-07-30T17:30:45.539-07:00OneBlood - Gilgamesh too oblique ;)
Maybe but if ...OneBlood - Gilgamesh too oblique ;) <br />Maybe but if you haven't studied the text and its historical context (you probably have) I'd recommend it for light vacation reading...Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-45824207494172058182009-07-30T17:27:43.285-07:002009-07-30T17:27:43.285-07:00Thanks Mac! I'll check it out.Thanks Mac! I'll check it out.Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-21576348419072615722009-07-30T17:14:38.989-07:002009-07-30T17:14:38.989-07:00I'll throw my humble attempt up over at Ignora...I'll throw my humble attempt up over at Ignorance and Apathy.machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04073782907747032366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-74135437090572797732009-07-30T12:08:03.391-07:002009-07-30T12:08:03.391-07:00Harvey - great insight and a true example of what ...Harvey - great insight and a true example of what I hoped might happen from this exercise. Like you I am generally in favor of patient autonomy in these matters but your position paper does give me pause to be more open to the collateral effects of these decisions on medical professionals. I can also see how this type of argument translates to discussions about pharmacists and morning after pills for example. <br /><br />We of course as a profession would not favor deciding to treat or not treat a patient on the basis of 'moral value judgments about the patient' but is that the same thing as deciding to provide or not provide a service which is morally objectionable to the provider? Doesn't seem like the same thing when I say it that way.<br /><br />Throughout history we have condemned clinicians who collaborated with others in performing 'services' that are or become morally objectionable. As adherents to the notion of evolving ethics and morals over time it is especially important to us.<br /><br />food for thought so thanks. This turned out better than I'd hoped.<br /><br />Hope it was useful to you as well.Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-42610126284390512502009-07-30T11:47:55.383-07:002009-07-30T11:47:55.383-07:00Brian: (and Pliny)
"If I wish to merely be t...Brian: (and Pliny)<br /><br />"If I wish to merely be the best arguer that I can be then this challenge makes sense of a sort. Practice the other side's position."<br /><br />Learning to debate is not necessarily the only reason to "practice" the other guy's position. It is probably much more valuable as a learning tool, both because it forces you to really "hear" what the other guy has been saying and, perhaps more important, forces you to "hear" how what you may have been trying to say sounds to him. Although I am generally in favor of assisted suicide under carefully regulated circumstances, this little exercise made me realize that the "price" for a physician participating, even if he/she is convinced that it is in the patient's best interest, might be very "expensive".<br /> I recently read on another blog about a nurse who is Catholic, but who was "required" to take part in an abortion at an institution that does them legally, even though she had informed the administration of her beliefs before she was hired. It seems ot me that in the absence of a life threatening emergency and under circumstances in which another nurse could have been substituted her employer's insistance upon her participation could be seen as "cruel and unusual" punishment.Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10797750710657979526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-28066411948569899412009-07-30T10:40:17.462-07:002009-07-30T10:40:17.462-07:00Harvey - nicely and succinctly done. and interest...Harvey - nicely and succinctly done. and interesting too. The ethical impact on physicians is particularly interesting as a consideration.<br /><br />Ste B.<br /><br />No need to abandon central tenants of your existence here in this exercise - there are plenty of life's positions other than theism from which to choose, but again it was only an exercise not intended to suck beyond imagination ;)Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-25519199418658042342009-07-29T09:44:16.798-07:002009-07-29T09:44:16.798-07:00If I wish to merely be the best arguer that I can ...If I wish to merely be the best arguer that I can be then this challenge makes sense of a sort. Practice the other side's position. <br /><br />But I argue from the heart. I feel what I am saying. It has emotional importance to me. <br />So to practice the opposite makes no sense. Unless I want to be like Eric or Renzo or Ray "Two Truths." <br /><br />For me the ONLY issue is christianity and how it is utterly wrong and also how it induces stupidity. Since it truly is and does, then even to practice it as an argument might lower my IQ. <br /><br />I absolutely refuse to argue that it doesn't. Because it does. <br /> <br />I already had that argument with myself years ago anyhow. I lost it then. I was arguing back then that it couldn't induce stupidity like a mental virus, since it's supposed to be a force for good in the world, it's supposed to be 'godly' and a force for love and understanding. I was wrong. It does. Imagine my surprise. <br /> <br />And I always ask myself if I might be wrong, in everything that I do. So I ask myself if I could be wrong in this too. <br /><br />Nope, I'm right. It really does make you stupid. The proof is everywhere. <br /><br />So I won't be taking the pliny challenge, sorry.Saint Brian the Godlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14902151482640409544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-69761858550844336482009-07-27T20:34:17.538-07:002009-07-27T20:34:17.538-07:00No, not painful, but reminiscent of English Lit as...No, not painful, but reminiscent of English Lit assignments and some debates many years ago.Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10797750710657979526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-15941543698618695252009-07-27T19:29:48.018-07:002009-07-27T19:29:48.018-07:00Very good Harvey! Was that painful??Very good Harvey! Was that painful??Stacy S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05097716092853603943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-27051360019547316212009-07-27T08:29:54.622-07:002009-07-27T08:29:54.622-07:00Assisted Suicide: Against
Challenge accepted 7/23...Assisted Suicide: Against<br /><br />Challenge accepted 7/23/09<br /><br />23.7.09 <br /><br />All of us who know that there is a God (regardless of our particular religion) understand that taking one's own life, under any circumstances, cannot be God's will. He gave us this wonderful gift (life) and it is, at the very least, ungrateful of us to purposely cut it short. Depending upon one's particular religious understanding, suicide must be seen as the gravest of sins. <br /> If we can see the obvious truth that it is God's will that we do not commit suicide, how much graver is the sin of anyone who knowingly abets a person bent on self destruction? And even more, how can any person who has sworn to "do no harm" (as all physicians do) and who has been given the gift and the responsibility to preserve life and heal those who are suffering, possibly take part in "assisting" the taking of someone's life? Clearly, such a health care professional who takes advantage of his/her prescriptive abilities to obtain the drugs that are usually employed in these circumstances is not only defying God, but also the public trust given with his/her licensure. Even in those (thankfully) few jurisdictions that have seen fit to permit such activities, it seems to me that no believing physician could possibly agree to take part in purposely ending a patient's life. One would hope that even those professionals who are not themselves believers would have a sufficiently developed ethical sense to refrain from abetting a patient from commiting such sin, the results of which are so clearly irrevocable. <br /> Much data exists that suggests that most suicide attempts are just that, and that the individuals involved most often are simply crying out for help and understanding, rather than truly wishing to end their own lives. Simce successful suicide, whether abetted or not, is irrevocable and final, it cannot be in the patient's best interest to help them succeed, when many of them would regret their rash act if they had the later opportunity.<br /> Finally, what is the price for "assisting" suicide for any professional who willingly takes part? If one is a believer, such an act must represent an eternal blot on his/ser sould. If not, the psycholgical price must weigh very heavily on his/her ethical sense for the rest of his/her professional life.Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10797750710657979526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-90577389545936414402009-07-26T05:33:51.469-07:002009-07-26T05:33:51.469-07:00Sorry Gear I never returned the favor.
I'm a ...Sorry Gear I never returned the favor.<br /><br />I'm a theist/deist (loosely used). I wasted a great deal of my life on delusions of grandeur [not religion related :-)] and didn't head to college until my late twenties.<br /><br />I will graduate with a degree in Spanish sometime in 2010 and hope to teach from there.<br /><br />I'm divorced and have one child.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-58486869591222907292009-07-25T23:15:22.966-07:002009-07-25T23:15:22.966-07:00Well Pliny,
I think Gilgamesh is a bit too obliqu...Well Pliny,<br /><br />I think Gilgamesh is a bit too oblique to use as a root for the Abrahamic faiths. <br /><br />I'll try to use another palette.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-88216736624069425362009-07-24T09:26:44.499-07:002009-07-24T09:26:44.499-07:00I like oneblood's suggestion of arguing for ho...I like oneblood's suggestion of arguing for homosexuality as a pathology. It's right up my alley, despite being exactly contrary to my point of view. It is perfect.Asylum Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02500952310972756918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-80897530790271021872009-07-24T06:57:10.327-07:002009-07-24T06:57:10.327-07:00GOOD NEWS!
Pliny will be out of pocket for seve...GOOD NEWS! <br /><br />Pliny will be out of pocket for several days. If you could get Seeker, pboy Stacy and Micheal good topics leave a trail and I'll add them in when I return.Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-1398130188335241562009-07-24T06:52:59.572-07:002009-07-24T06:52:59.572-07:00Ok Mac - you get "hell is fair"Ok Mac - you get "hell is fair"Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-5782311574307181472009-07-23T21:37:09.232-07:002009-07-23T21:37:09.232-07:00Yeah, good one.
But, I might agree with that one ...Yeah, good one.<br /><br />But, I might agree with that one anyway ;-)<br /><br />I'm not really sure HD needed the protection from the Japanese. I think they may have needed a little protection from AMF...but I am biased .machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04073782907747032366noreply@blogger.com