tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post6374054740583613522..comments2023-08-09T09:01:29.229-07:00Comments on Pliny's Tangent Du Jour: Basic Science Saturday on the QTPliny-the-in-Betweenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-11090432108335082372011-08-11T22:39:31.637-07:002011-08-11T22:39:31.637-07:00Oh, I see that I posted that last on the wrong, ol...Oh, I see that I posted that last on the wrong, older post. I shall correct. Bye!Saint Brian the Godlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14902151482640409544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-56775737165330933732011-08-11T22:17:16.028-07:002011-08-11T22:17:16.028-07:00After a cursory read I agree, the clearest explana...After a cursory read I agree, the clearest explanation of quantum tunneling that I've ever heard. You are already an accomplished writer, and you're apparently also a very good science educator. Y'Ever think of becoming the next Carl Sagan? <br /><br />Okay, unrealistic, but how about a gripping novel where basic understanding of science saves the day? <br /><br />I shall endeavor to read this article in it's fullness either tonight or more likely, tomorrow. And your previous ones that I've missed as well. When I feel that I'm actually LEARNING SOMETHING, I get interested, and so I am. <br /><br />You are pretty fucking cool, pliny. Don't let it go to your head, though. Your lack of egotism is one of your best qualities. <br /><br />Nicely done, sir.Saint Brian the Godlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14902151482640409544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-43407452191465553892011-08-09T13:21:59.283-07:002011-08-09T13:21:59.283-07:00I think this can mostly be summed up with the quot...I think this can mostly be summed up with the quote my Organic Chem (1&2--I got really lucky and had the same prof. for both!) professor used to always say: "subatomic particles are not like ping-pong balls"Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04837530362277701547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-76369771958992648352011-08-08T07:17:50.401-07:002011-08-08T07:17:50.401-07:00I don't think that we do ever have 'origin...I don't think that we do ever have 'original' thoughts. It is my understanding, and I may be completely wrong here, that everything is evolutionary. We have 'what we have', nothing is constant except change, so what's the next thing?<br /><br />What boggles my mind is computers. I think that I could understand it if I could read a well written history of it. I've tried and tried and seem to have a giant mental block. I did 1/2 first-year course using PASCAL and aced that but I feel as if something is being kept from me, don't know what it is, but I'd know it if I read about it.<br /><br />Michael, do you never get tired of being wrong, it's turtles all the way down.pboyfloydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01475980562742243007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-71250905328579053252011-08-07T13:17:24.929-07:002011-08-07T13:17:24.929-07:00Harry going back to Jared's point, the process...Harry going back to Jared's point, the processes we see occurring in nerve conduction (stuff from Neuro basics part 1) involve chemical receptor molecules, hormones, and ion pumps that alter the permeability of the cell membranes. The altered physiological behavior comes about because of a relatively large (and transient) shift in polarity across the membrane in a certain region that is propagated along the length of the axon. <br /><br />the resting potential of the membranes stays remarkably steady unless a biochemical signal is sent.Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-89891439031963066562011-08-07T13:06:56.547-07:002011-08-07T13:06:56.547-07:00AHA! some actual science discussion on the Interne...AHA! some actual science discussion on the Internet - who knew.<br /><br />Once again, I suppose I should have been more clear in some of my writing. Most of this discussion will have bearing on three areas of future discussion:<br /><br />1) work on artificial 'minds' where tunneling has significant design implications<br />2) Discussing the history of views of people like Hofstadter and Penrose for example as to the nature of the mind<br /><br />and<br />3) what Jared has alluded to - quantum woo, which I broadly call efforts to extrapolate particle effects several orders of magnitude removed from our macro world.<br /><br /><br />In time, this will be helpful to compare and contrast basic biochemical processes at a molecular level (still far removed from what we sense in everyday living) from what is happening at the particle level.Pliny-the-in-Betweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16580900408227953736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-82309318703407351662011-08-07T12:26:01.290-07:002011-08-07T12:26:01.290-07:00I won't say it's impossible, but we know t...I won't say it's impossible, but we know that it is the movement of atoms responsible for neuronal firing and signal transduction, not movement of electrons (as in the case of photosynthesis, where the only evidence of quantum effects in biological systems actually exists).Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04837530362277701547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-48529870459290045022011-08-07T11:53:36.369-07:002011-08-07T11:53:36.369-07:00Well, is it improbable to the point of impossible ...Well, is it improbable to the point of impossible that the configuration of 'small' particles into 'big' particles would retain any quantum effects?<br /><br />(Just playing Yahweh's advocate).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-91031035640397725552011-08-07T11:44:23.766-07:002011-08-07T11:44:23.766-07:00Great explanation Pliny!
My only criticism is th...Great explanation Pliny! <br /><br />My only criticism is that there is no need to eschew metaphors. <br /><br />In fact your post is an example that word pictures can be just as accurate as "regular pictures." They both come up short without more context. ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-64161059888185344972011-08-07T10:18:25.729-07:002011-08-07T10:18:25.729-07:00Jared,
I was mainly pointing to the faulty logic ...Jared,<br /><br />I was mainly pointing to the faulty logic in theistic arguments. If there's some fundamental process involving quantum effects, I haven't heard of them (although that in no way shows that there aren't discussions out there; just that I haven't seen them...).<br /><br />What I was hoping to express is the idea that such simplistic (and uninformed for the most part) dismissals as the ones theists give aren't satisfactory given the huge complexity in the whole "brain-as-electrochemical-organ" materialistic explanation.<br /><br />Because it's not really about the 'matter'; it's about the energy patterns.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-77091350792103169922011-08-07T10:14:55.573-07:002011-08-07T10:14:55.573-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-37623084073490877522011-08-07T09:58:38.585-07:002011-08-07T09:58:38.585-07:00Well, that line of argument stems mostly from the ...Well, that line of argument stems mostly from the fairly faulty logic of "deterministic processes can't result in new ideas." This is patently false, we come up with new engineering processes all the time with computer programs. I don't think anyone would argue that computers are not deterministic, but here you have new concepts and ideas arising from purely deterministic systems.<br /><br />I'm of the opinion that quantum properties don't play any role in the functioning of the brain. I may be wrong on this given some evidence, but it just smells like woo.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04837530362277701547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-59430061924692995682011-08-07T08:47:38.601-07:002011-08-07T08:47:38.601-07:00One of the ways it will tie into a discussion of c...One of the ways it will tie into a discussion of consciousness is as an objection to the utterly simplistic complaint that theists are always trying to bludgeon materialists with: theists complain that in a materialistic universe, allof the constituent parts of our brains are reducible to particles of one sort or another, and thus are bound by physical laws as to behavior, i.e., deterministic. Then they ask, "If material brains are deterministic, then you could never have an original thought, and all explanations of mind / consciousness fail".<br /><br />Of course, that's nonsense, because as Pliny's OP points out, subatomic particles aren't little Newtonian billiard balls. Further on that, it's not the 'matter' that matters; it's the energy states supported by the arrangement of the 'matter' that makes the difference.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-27568661058862739202011-08-07T08:00:00.609-07:002011-08-07T08:00:00.609-07:00Good synopsis of quantum tunneling, but I don'...Good synopsis of quantum tunneling, but I don't think I follow how this will tie into neurology...Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04837530362277701547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-30240885025386238742011-08-07T05:53:52.320-07:002011-08-07T05:53:52.320-07:00I had much less trouble learning microsurgery of t...I had much less trouble learning microsurgery of the ear than this. Nevertheless, thank you for providing at least the minimal understanding necessary for what promises to be an interesting later teaching session.Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10797750710657979526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-79080257003885688802011-08-07T02:34:24.493-07:002011-08-07T02:34:24.493-07:00"..very very huge (channeling Michael Palin),..."..very very huge (channeling Michael Palin), nuclei can fuse because a certain percentage ‘tunnel’ through the barrier ..."<br /><br />Channel tunnelling! (Michael Palin would 'get it')<br /><br />Groan.<br /><br /><br />Um, um..other thing. Micron? Smallest Transformer?<br /><br />(Hey it's early, leave me alone.)<br /><br />Seriously now, that's very interesting stuff.pboyfloydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01475980562742243007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-84171667044249122362011-08-07T02:22:39.566-07:002011-08-07T02:22:39.566-07:00Pliny's atheist apology, "I am SO sorry! ...Pliny's atheist apology, "I am SO sorry! Don't hit me. AWWW, go head and hit me, I deserve it." <br /><br />You are hilarious, you know that.<br /><br />Now, back to read through to the end.<br /><br />Good stuff.pboyfloydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01475980562742243007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1746564418600302090.post-30009393045223318302011-08-07T00:09:24.125-07:002011-08-07T00:09:24.125-07:00That was the clearest explanation of quantum tunne...That was the clearest explanation of quantum tunneling I have seen. Not that I have seen a great many such explanations. My limited reading in quantum electrodynamics has been just enough to define my confusion, rather than lead to enlightenment. <br /><br />Of course we all know, deep down inside, that it is all pixies. Pixies dancing with angels.Michael Lockridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748256055779697021noreply@blogger.com